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  1. #1
    PineGroveBully's Avatar
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    If Arky or SC can pull off the upset it's very possible

    That the SEC will win as many or more games in the tourney than the ACC even though they had nearly twice the berths. That could only help us if we can take the next step next year and get on the bubble. It might also might highlight that if we play consistently we're not that far off because outside of Vandy we gave the other 4 tourney teams all they wanted and then some.


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  2. #2
    Vandy did everything they could to lose their game. The sec has performed well


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  3. #3
    Should have been a charge on UNC with about 45 seconds to go.


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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by 57stratdawg View Post
    Should have been a charge on UNC with about 45 seconds to go.
    Or a block or a travel. Unc got hand on that 3 too. Almost like cbs called refs together at under 4 TO and said we need UNC to win for ratings


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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PineGroveBully View Post
    That the SEC will win as many or more games in the tourney than the ACC even though they had nearly twice the berths. That could only help us if we can take the next step next year and get on the bubble. It might also might highlight that if we play consistently we're not that far off because outside of Vandy we gave the other 4 tourney teams all they wanted and then some.
    That Arkansas offensive execution down the stretch was vintage SEC basketball.


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  6. #6
    The SEC was obviously much better this year than it got credit for on the front end. Even as recently as a week ago. Will be very competitive going forward.


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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by olblue View Post
    That Arkansas offensive execution down the stretch was vintage SEC basketball.
    What was the final? I saw a little of the game near the beginning and Ark was well behind.


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  8. #8
    Arkansas lost 72-65. Was up 65-60 with about 3 minutes to go but fell apart down the stretch and UNC closed the game on a 12-0 run.


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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    The SEC was obviously much better this year than it got credit for on the front end. Even as recently as a week ago. Will be very competitive going forward.
    I spent the better part of last week watching SEC basketball in Nashville. It still sucks.


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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by olblue View Post
    I spent the better part of last week watching SEC basketball in Nashville. It still sucks.
    UNC and duke disagree


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  11. #11

    Game Cocks making a statement

    but there is time left.
    Jack may be gone, but he is "EVER PRESENT"


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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    UNC and duke disagree
    The randomness that is the NCAA tournament doesn't change the fact that there was some awful play in Nashville last week and arenas across the southeast for the last 4 months.


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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by olblue View Post
    The randomness that is the NCAA tournament doesn't change the fact that there was some awful play in Nashville last week and arenas across the southeast for the last 4 months.
    Florida took Virginia to the woodshed and hell, OM beat Syracuse.


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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    Florida took Virginia to the woodshed and hell, OM beat Syracuse.
    And Mississippi State won at Arkansas. Crazy things happen in college basketball - especially in March.


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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    Florida took Virginia to the woodshed and hell, OM beat Syracuse.
    Every year there seems to be one region that completely blows up and ends up with 3-4 random teams in the Sweet 16. This year its the East.


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  16. #16
    How many teams do we have in the Sweet 16 again? Which conference has more? This tournament has shown that in reality the SEC should have had 6, maybe 7 in the tournament THIS year.

    AND the conference's trajectory is on a very steep climb.

    The bottom 5 in the conference currently have 3 very good head coaches in early stage rebuilds(State, Auburn, Tennessee) -- and 2 new hires being made(LSU, Mizzou). Also fair to note that all 5 were among the 25 youngest teams in all of Division 1 this year. That's the cellar -- not even addressing what's going on at the top.


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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by olblue View Post
    The randomness that is the NCAA tournament doesn't change the fact that there was some awful play in Nashville last week and arenas across the southeast for the last 4 months.
    You might be able to argue this if it hadn't been literally every single SEC game in the tournament so far. Randomness is pretty tough to blame over the course of 8 games, in which the SEC has yet to be embarrassed even in the two losses. Even tougher to blame when you get 9 in and basically lose your whole league in the first weekend, like the "elite" ACC has done.


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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    How many teams do we have in the Sweet 16 again? Which conference has more? This tournament has shown that in reality the SEC should have had 6, maybe 7 in the tournament THIS year.

    AND the conference's trajectory is on a very steep climb.

    The bottom 5 in the conference currently have 3 very good head coaches in early stage rebuilds(State, Auburn, Tennessee) -- and 2 new hires being made(LSU, Mizzou). Also fair to note that all 5 were among the 25 youngest teams in all of Division 1 this year. That's the cellar -- not even addressing what's going on at the top.
    Again, the tournament is random. Always has been. Always will be.

    This will bring the SEC homers out with the SEC>ACC nonsense. But its not.

    The SEC still has a bunch of bad teams which leads to a lot of bad basketball. One wild weekend doesn't change that.


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  19. #19
    8 in a row isn't "random" regardless of how you want to spin it. You are just doubling down on a position you've taken all along -- that looks pretty wrong right about now.

    Just for the record, the ACC is 3-11 ATS in the tournament. The SEC is 6-2-1.

    The SEC doesn't play as pretty or pure of a game to watch. Eye candy doesn't define how good the teams are though.
    Last edited by engie; 03-19-2017 at 10:42 PM.


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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    8 in a row isn't "random" regardless of how you want to spin it. You are just doubling down on a position you've taken all along -- that looks pretty wrong right about now.
    When Baylor, Florida, South Carolina and Wisconsin make up the FF of a region, that's random. Its unfortunate because MSG deserves better - but that's the NCAAT. Its like Barkley just said, anything can happen in a one game matchup.

    Let me ask you this, would you have taken Duke even about 3 hours ago? That's what I thought.

    Look, if you want to be a homer, knock yourself out. At the end of the day, not many people will remember who made the Sweet 16 or the Elite 8 except for fans of those teams and coaches' agents. There were eight teams that are good enough to win it all when the tournament started. Two are gone, which happens every year. With the way they are playing, you could probably add Michigan to the list.


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  21. #21
    PineGroveBully's Avatar
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    Do results not matter? If they don't then why are you wasting your time watching? If they do then it's clear to most of the country that the SEC is on the way up. In 2017 where 19 yr old veterans lead NCAA teams there's a lot of bad basketball played in every conference. No one is saying that sweet georgia brown should be played through the PA as we put on bball clinics. But relative to the consensus best conference in the land, the SEC has more than held it's own on the biggest stage of the year. And at worst State played those teams to a collective draw this year with the youngest roster in the country.

    If we was playing checkers it'd be your move.


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  22. #22
    Part of makes the SEC seem like it is a bad conference is the way it is officiated. I'm not sure if other leagues games are called the same way but I doubt it. This year State's games against Kentucky and South Carolina were painful watch because of the officiating. Not saying we lost because of it but very hard to watch. If I remember correctly, which is always questionable, there were around or over 50 fouls in both games


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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PineGroveBully View Post
    Do results not matter? If they don't then why are you wasting your time watching? If they do then it's clear to most of the country that the SEC is on the way up. In 2017 where 19 yr old veterans lead NCAA teams there's a lot of bad basketball played in every conference. No one is saying that sweet georgia brown should be played through the PA as we put on bball clinics. But relative to the consensus best conference in the land, the SEC has more than held it's own on the biggest stage of the year. And at worst State played those teams to a collective draw this year with the youngest roster in the country.

    If we was playing checkers it'd be your move.
    I watch the games because I like watching basketball. If you want to live vicarously through your conference rivals because your favorite team is a bottom feeder, go right ahead.

    I heard Sean Farnham talking the other day talking about how bad the Big 12 is. They have three teams in the Sweet 16 but that doesn't change the fact that the back half of that league is bad - its Kansas, a 3 decent teams and then mediocrity or worse. There has been a lot of chatter about the Big 10 being down, and quite frankly it was this year. Yet Purdue, Wisconsin and Michigan are still alive. That doesn't mean the B1G all of the sudden became much better. It means those three teams had a nice weekend.

    I think way too much is made of three teams riding a two game win streak. There are 11 other teams in the SEC most of which aren't very good.

    Once again, the NCAAT is all about matchups. I think SC matches up well against Baylor, Florida not so much against Wisconsin. On a side note, as I said earlier, the Mecca of basketball deserves a lot better than those four teams but it is what it is.


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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    You might be able to argue this if it hadn't been literally every single SEC game in the tournament so far. Randomness is pretty tough to blame over the course of 8 games, in which the SEC has yet to be embarrassed even in the two losses. Even tougher to blame when you get 9 in and basically lose your whole league in the first weekend, like the "elite" ACC has done.
    I just didn't wake up one day and decide the tournament was random. Because it always has been and always will be - especially the first weekend.


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  25. #25
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    This is simple. The SEC was slightly underrated and the ACC was slightly overrated. To say one sucked and the other was great is silly.
    90 percent of college football teams do not cheat...the other 10 percent are ranked.


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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by olblue View Post
    I just didn't wake up one day and decide the tournament was random. Because it always has been and always will be - especially the first weekend.
    Why do the best teams make it the farthest the most often then?

    By your definition -- every postseason in every sport is random.

    But I'll ask you again -- was the SEC the best conference in college football last year?


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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by aTotal360 View Post
    This is simple. The SEC was slightly underrated and the ACC was slightly overrated. To say one sucked and the other was great is silly.
    Where did you read this comment in this thread? It was more than "slight".


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  28. #28
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    Mainly addressing Blue's fervent defending of the ACC and his dumping on the SEC. Outside of FSU and Virginia, the ACC has played ok. They are getting beat by good teams in fairly close games.
    90 percent of college football teams do not cheat...the other 10 percent are ranked.


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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    Why do the best teams make it the farthest the most often then?

    By your definition -- every postseason in every sport is random.

    But I'll ask you again -- was the SEC the best conference in college football last year?
    1. They don't always (see Villanova and another team or two this year and Michigan State last year)

    2. Not necessarily. Why do you think the NBA, NHL and MLB settle their champions with seven game series?

    3. I have no idea because, frankly, I could not care any less.


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  30. #30
    I hate that we use the tournament to determine an entire conference is overrated / underrated. It's flawed in bowl season when everyone wants to say the SEC is overrated.

    I think on a macro level CBB is pretty level this year. The Big 10 didn't have a great regular season, but they've played well in the tournament. Just how the ball bounces sometimes.


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  31. #31
    The tournament has a bunch to do with the 'team' who is peaking at the right time. The ACC will put more 'players' in the NBA than the SEC this year.


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  32. #32
    aTotal360's Avatar
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    Yup. It's just as wildly variable as MLB playoffs.
    90 percent of college football teams do not cheat...the other 10 percent are ranked.


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  33. #33
    FSU and North Carolina were their only two covers in the tournament...


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  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by olblue View Post
    1. They don't always (see Villanova and another team or two this year and Michigan State last year)
    Using the term "always" in sports shows the desperation of your position. The anomaly of single games cancel out as the sample size goes up. Hence why the best teams go the deepest the most often. Not always, but the most often.

    I still contend that a dozen games with it all on the line in March is a HELLUVA lot better judge of a team and conference than a dozen games in November/December -- when the "system" decides the mold of these conferences -- and they are stuck in that mold through conference play and into the postseason -- when we finally get a fair assessment of what they actually were. In the same way the football power structure is decided every year in the first 4 weeks -- and on rivalry weekend -- sometimes accurately and sometimes insanely.

    2. Not necessarily. Why do you think the NBA, NHL and MLB settle their champions with seven game series?
    So, you think those leagues crown the best team champion? MLB actually did last year -- which is pretty rare(25% of the time ish). The NBA did not. I don't even know who won the NHL. The only sport known to man that crowns the best team overall champion more often than not -- is college football. NASCAR used to. And the percentage chance on that happening every year has gone down with the introduction of the playoffs.
    Last edited by engie; 03-20-2017 at 10:05 AM.


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  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by 57stratdawg View Post
    I hate that we use the tournament to determine an entire conference is overrated / underrated. It's flawed in bowl season when everyone wants to say the SEC is overrated.
    It's a totally different deal than in bowl season. If you want to make a comparison to bowl season outside of the playoffs -- it's the NIT you must compare to.

    I think on a macro level CBB is pretty level this year. The Big 10 didn't have a great regular season, but they've played well in the tournament. Just how the ball bounces sometimes.
    The big 10 is virtually the same story as the SEC -- Extremely young/inexperienced this year. I posted the numbers in one of Rambis's threads that I broke down from the Kenpom data. We were both half a season average experience behind the other power conferences.

    ETAata
    Experience as measured by KenPom and played with in excel a little bit, broken down by conference. Can be taken an infinite number of ways, but to me, it shows brighter days on the horizon for the conference overall. And maybe I expected too much, although it's fair to say we should have been better and are more talented than the past month shows us to be.


    Dayton A10 2.18 avg experience Bottom 120 experience
    VCU A10 2.14 A10 1.659 5 of 14
    La Salle A10 2.05 ACC 1.691 5 of 15
    St. Bonaventure A10 1.92 American 1.634 6 of 11
    Rhode Island A10 1.79 Big10 1.467 9 of 14
    Fordham A10 1.77 Big12 1.725 3 of 10
    Davidson A10 1.71 Big East 1.654 2 of 10
    Richmond A10 1.65 Pac12 1.556 5 of 12
    George Washington A10 1.59 SEC 1.432 9 of 14
    Saint Louis A10 1.56
    Duquesne A10 1.35
    George Mason A10 1.28
    Saint Joseph's A10 1.22
    Massachusetts A10 1.02
    Pittsburgh ACC 2.31
    Clemson ACC 2.14
    Notre Dame ACC 2.09
    Virginia Tech ACC 1.89
    North Carolina ACC 1.86
    Georgia Tech ACC 1.85
    Syracuse ACC 1.74
    Virginia ACC 1.58
    Louisville ACC 1.58
    Boston College ACC 1.57
    Duke ACC 1.48
    Miami FL ACC 1.45
    Wake Forest ACC 1.41
    Florida St. ACC 1.26
    North Carolina St. ACC 1.16
    Houston Amer 2.15
    UCF Amer 2.11
    SMU Amer 1.89
    Cincinnati Amer 1.72
    Connecticut Amer 1.64
    Tulane Amer 1.56
    East Carolina Amer 1.55
    Tulsa Amer 1.53
    Temple Amer 1.41
    Memphis Amer 1.37
    South Florida Amer 1.04
    Wisconsin B10 2.05
    Michigan B10 2.05
    Illinois B10 1.93
    Ohio St. B10 1.69
    Northwestern B10 1.69
    Purdue B10 1.56
    Rutgers B10 1.43
    Nebraska B10 1.33
    Minnesota B10 1.29
    Indiana B10 1.25
    Maryland B10 1.18
    Michigan St. B10 1.16
    Penn St. B10 1.02
    Iowa B10 0.91
    Iowa St. B12 2.55
    Texas Tech B12 2.39
    West Virginia B12 1.96
    Baylor B12 1.91
    Kansas B12 1.76
    TCU B12 1.62
    Kansas St. B12 1.6
    Oklahoma St. B12 1.51
    Oklahoma B12 1.03
    Texas B12 0.92
    Butler BE 2.04
    Villanova BE 1.88
    Seton Hall BE 1.81
    Creighton BE 1.77
    Georgetown BE 1.76
    Xavier BE 1.71
    Marquette BE 1.68
    DePaul BE 1.59
    Providence BE 1.4
    St. John's BE 0.9
    Colorado P12 2.11
    Arizona St. P12 2.06
    Washington St. P12 2
    Stanford P12 2
    California P12 1.89
    Oregon P12 1.79
    Utah P12 1.62
    UCLA P12 1.41
    Arizona P12 1.11
    USC P12 1.07
    Washington P12 0.84
    Oregon St. P12 0.77
    Arkansas SEC 2.27
    Florida SEC 2.02
    Mississippi SEC 1.96
    Vanderbilt SEC 1.84
    Georgia SEC 1.7
    Alabama SEC 1.56
    South Carolina SEC 1.55
    Texas A&M SEC 1.34
    Missouri SEC 1.06
    Tennessee SEC 1.05
    Auburn SEC 1.05
    LSU SEC 1.01
    Kentucky SEC 0.94
    Mississippi St. SEC 0.7


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  36. #36

    I think

    it's silly to suggest that the league is not getting better, but then again, I didn't go to the SEC tourney so I guess my opinion is disqualified.****


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  37. #37
    Administrator DawgatAuburn's Avatar
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    I don't have a dog in this fight, but here are some numbers to chew on.

    If you go by the seeds, this year's Sweet 16 is the least "random" since 2009. The seed sum of this year's Sweet 16 is 65. Last year was 66, but in the last decade there have been years of 79, 80 and 81 (so more "random"). I mentioned 2009 because it was maybe the least random ever with a seed sum of 49. The lowest possible is obviously 40.

    2009 Sweet 16 seeds
    South: 1, 2, 3, 4
    West: 1, 2, 3, 5
    East: 1, 2, 3, 4
    MW: 1, 2, 3, 12 (and the 12 was Arizona)

    There is also only one double digit seed in this year's Sweet 16 - Xavier. There have been 23 in the last decade, so you would have sort of expected at least one more. 2009 and 2015 were the only other years with just one double digit seed.

    However, this year's East stands out for two reasons. First, the seed sum is 22. That's not the highest sum in the last decade, but it's in the top third. The ten-year average for any region is a little over 19. And for whatever reason, the East has been less "random" over time, with an average seed sum of 16.5, so a 22 in the East is particularly noteworthy and leans toward random.

    What makes this year's East even more unique/more random is not having either the 1 or the 2 seed in the Sweet 16. The only other time that's happened in any region over the last 10 years was the 2015 East (of all places), when Nova and Virginia both lost in the second round. So the East has been very consistent over time, but also has the only two instances in the last 10 years of seeing both the 1 and the 2 fail to make the Sweet 16. FWIW, the West is the most consistent region, with an average seed sum of 15.8 and only three double digit seeds advancing in the last 10 years, including Xavier this year.


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  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    You might be able to argue this if it hadn't been literally every single SEC game in the tournament so far. Randomness is pretty tough to blame over the course of 8 games, in which the SEC has yet to be embarrassed even in the two losses. Even tougher to blame when you get 9 in and basically lose your whole league in the first weekend, like the "elite" ACC has done.
    No, it's really not. Teams are going to over perform and underperform expectations in the tournament each year. By randomness, some conferences are going to occasionally look much better or much worse than they actually would be (compared to say what the results would be if 5 games series would be played). If you thought the SEC didn't have a chance at winning games in march, you obviously underrated them, but what they've done isn't that crazy.

    Florida was a four seed and beat a 13 seed (which usually happens) and then beat a 5 seed, which is probably around a 50/50 proposition.

    South Carolina beat a 10 seed, which is better than a 50/50 proposition, and then beat a 2 seed, which was a good upset.

    Arkansas beat a 9 seed 9 (about a 50/50 proposition) and then lost to a 1 seed.

    Nothing looks that crazy to me in that grouping. We had 1 team (Fla) come up good on what are probably close to 50/50 odds. South Carolina did significantly better. Arkansas basically came up good on a coin flip and failed to pull the much bigger upset.

    That doesn't scream that the SEC was underrated to me. Maybe South Carolina was underrated, or maybe they had one good game or Duke had one particularly bad game or both.


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  39. #39
    Florida is the #3 team in the country per Kenpom. Yes, having them as a 4 seed was underrating how good they actually were. And you went game by game by game(micro) to explain macro data, which in it's current state says 6-2-1 ATS IS significantly over-performing expectations. Could and should be 8-0-1 ATS had Vanderbilt not gone full retard in the final seconds and Kentucky actually played hard in their first game.

    You can say that no one is surprised UK and Florida are in the Sweet 16, and that is true. But South Carolina and Arkansas should have both been run out of the arena by perennial powerhouses Duke and North Carolina. And Marquette, for that matter.

    You could do the same thing about every arm injury we've had in baseball too -- explaining how each one individually were not caused by Wes Johnson. But when you look at the big picture -- a pattern emerges.


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  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    Florida is the #3 team in the country per Kenpom. Yes, having them as a 4 seed was underrating how good they actually were. And you went game by game by game(micro) to explain macro data, which in it's current state says 6-2-1 ATS IS significantly over-performing expectations. Could and should be 8-0-1 ATS had Vanderbilt not gone full retard in the final seconds and Kentucky actually played hard in their first game.

    You can say that no one is surprised UK and Florida are in the Sweet 16, and that is true. But South Carolina and Arkansas should have both been run out of the arena by perennial powerhouses Duke and North Carolina. And Marquette, for that matter.

    You could do the same thing about every arm injury we've had in baseball too -- explaining how each one individually were not caused by Wes Johnson. But when you look at the big picture -- a pattern emerges.

    9 games against the spread is not "macro" when you're talking about the conference being underrated. The SEC may be underrated, but you can't really look at first and second round tournament results, when so much of that is who has the hot hand (or who has the cold hand). You can literally have two individuals get hot or cold and change the results by 20% (or more if it's the first round).


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