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  1. #1
    Administrator DawgatAuburn's Avatar
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    I donít understand what the Stansbury crowd wants (TLDR)

    Over and over I see posts on this board that reference Stansbury.

    ďWe were never this bad under RS.Ē
    ďNo way weíd be this bad if RS was still the coach?Ē
    ďRS is the best coach the program has ever had.Ē

    And so on. Youíve seen them.

    What exactly is there to gain from that? Yes, there was a strong faction on this board that actively campaigned to have RS fired. I strongly doubt it had any influence in the eventual departure of RS, but the grumbling had been going on for years.

    Full disclosure: While I donít think I ever advocated for a firing, I didnít shed a tear when RS stepped down either voluntarily or involuntarily. I was certainly critical of lots of things about him though Ė his OOC schedule, his player rotation, our inept zone offense, the inconsistent performances, and so on. The suggestion I kept making was that he needed to shake up the staff and have someone there who had strengths in his areas of weakness. Some have suggested Stan Jones was that type of coach, and maybe he was. For the most part, it seemed like Rick surrounded himself with yes men whose knowledge wasnít going to threaten his spot as the top dog (no pun intended).

    You can debate all day long if firing RS (if we can agree thatís what happened) was the right move or not. Like I said, I didnít shed a tear at the time, but I also believed the next year was going to be bad because we were losing so many players, so maybe waiting one more year and firing him based off performance would have been the smarter move. I personally donít think Rodney Hood was coming back for his sophomore season based of his body language late in his freshman year, and certain people on this board are 100% sure that he was and others are 100% certain that he was not. That tells me that no one knows, even the ones who are 100% sure they are right and could somehow magically be proven right if we had a DeLorean to go back and change the past and let RS stay another year. Josh Grey was a shot in the dark too. Heís been committed to five or six schools over his time. It doesnít matter. If Hood had come back we would have still been awful his sophomore year, then he would have been gone to the NBA. Greyís not a program changer. Bottom line is I think RS would have been fired after 2013 if he had been allowed to come back.

    So like it or not, the RS ship has sailed. He is gone and not coming back. Yet the RS posts keep coming and coming and coming. What has to happen for us to pick up and move on? Do you need to be told you are right? Is that it? OK, fine, you are right. I donít think we would be this awful if Rick was still the coach, and we certainly were never this bad under his tenure. In those areas, you are 100% correct. I long for the days of being 9-7 SEC West champs.

    The normal reply to a lot of the RS posts is that while Rick Ray may have been a bad hire, that doesnít make firing RS when we did the wrong move. I could not agree more. But as has been stated over and over, the firing of RS and the hiring of RR are independent of one another and should be evaluated as such. They donít have to be BOTH right or BOTH wrong. Itís possible and at this point seems to be likely that the second decision was a bad one regardless of how you feel/felt about the first one.

    For the first time in a long time, at least the program has some unity right now, because no group that I know of is happy right now. The people who were actively campaigning for RS to be fired are not happy. Most of them are not going to say they miss RS or wish we hadnít fired him, so get that out of your minds. This is not what anyone wanted to happen. That group of people wants to win, just like everyone else. The people who werenít vocal about it but are glad we fired him arenít happy. They want to win too. The people who loved RS arenít happy. Theyíre never going to agree that firing RS when we did was the right move, so donít waste your breath on that either. Even the people who donít care about basketball arenít happy right now. Losing sucks and everyone is tired of it. Continuing to look three years in the past isnít going to change anything or help our future.

    As for our current situationÖ.itís bad and getting worse. In my opinion we have below average talent who seem to be getting below average instruction. All of that eventually falls to the head coach. Thereís a real possibility we go 0-18 in the league this year, but as usual the SEC is so bad that we will have opportunities to win some games. But two months from now, we will have a decision to make. Stay the course with RR, or flush it and start over again. Neither seems like the quick fix we would love to see. If we stick with RR as I expect us to do barring something like the aforementioned 0-18, then I think next year will be his final year. Thereís no reason to expect that we will be considerably better in another year than we are now. Player improvement you say? Itís not happening. Ware got pulled last night because as a junior he couldnít handle ball screen defense. Thomas still canít be counted on to make shots. Sword is an athlete masquerading as a basketball player. Why should I count on them to be better as seniors, or for seemingly less skilled guys like Black, Ndoye, Houston and Dunlap to make some sort of magical leap next year? I just donít see it. We need a major talent upgrade in the program. If RR canít deliver that, he wonít be successful. If he did somehow deliver thatÖÖ.then I guess weíd have to wait and see.

    Ok, I feel better now. Sorry for the diatribe. Basketball has always been my favorite sport, and itís just depressing and disheartening to watch what has happened to the program. FWIW I think there are other things we could do to help RR out. Not that we have any kind of crowd coming to games, but reassigning the Hump seating destroyed the student section. Chalk that one up to Byrne or Stricklin, but if we really wanted to give RR a chance to win, weíd put our students in seats where they could have an impact on the game, not relegated to behind the basket and 2/3 in the upper level. We whored out to the ticket money at an immeasurable cost to the Hump. I hope that money is being put to good use.


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  2. #2

    Outstanding post.

    Agree with it all.
    Last edited by Rog; 01-08-2015 at 11:33 AM.


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  3. #3
    The General HD6's Avatar
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    First off anybody who replies with a quote on this post is just mean.

    All I'll say is this. Certain people spent 8 years on this board railing on Stansbury. 8 years! You can't handle a month of retribution?


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  4. #4
    Cleveland Steamer missouridawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HD6 View Post
    First off anybody who replies with a quote on this post is just mean.

    All I'll say is this. Certain people spent 8 years on this board railing on Stansbury. 8 years! You can't handle a month of retribution?
    Just because Rick Ray has failed, doesn't mean that Stansbury needed to be kept.


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  5. #5
    Administrator DawgatAuburn's Avatar
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    A month would be fine. We're closing in on a year now.


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  6. #6
    Damn. You must really care about basketball


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  7. #7
    I think it's "See I was right!" Also, I agree moving on from RS was the right move, but it looks like hiring RR was not. However, it's worth we wouldn't have been in position to miss on the Ray hiring if we don't Fire Stansbury. I don't see those two as totally independent of each other.

    I have no idea where the idea that RR is good X and O coach comes from. We looked worse offensively last night than I think I've ever seen MSU Basketball. I have no idea if we worked on zone offense or not, but it sure as hell didnt look like it.
    Last edited by 57stratdawg; 01-08-2015 at 10:59 AM.


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  8. #8
    The General HD6's Avatar
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    Fine then, 1 down, 7 to go. This is the bed you and others made, you can lie in it as far as I'm concerned.
    "At South Panola we still honor what the word commitment means"-Lance Pogue



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  9. #9
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    Good post. Count in me in the "don't care about basketball" group but you are right- losing sucks and I'm tired of it.


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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgatAuburn View Post
    Basketball has always been my favorite sport, and it’s just depressing and disheartening to watch what has happened to the program.
    Must be pretty bad for you in this case. Fortunately for me, baseball, then football, are my favorites so I am fairly happy at the moment, and it is easier for me to long for Stans' accomplishments. Basketball is a distant 3rd for me, but I agree, it is a shame to see us now vs. what the program has been in the past.

    In my mind, and I am serious, if we do not want to bring back Richard Williams (or Stans), I say give Kenny Payne a chance. The MS guy, who has seen better, and is coming hope to resurrect the hometown program. He would bring plenty of interest, at the minimum.

    Personally I cannot see MSU succeeding at all 3 major sports. I think we have the right formula right now.....be elite in baseball, be strategic in football to the point it makes us money, and roll the dice with low-paid guys in basketball. We are never going to draw the needed huge crowds in basketball to be elite, we are in a rural location. Let it just be entertainment.
    Last edited by Hammer Down; 01-08-2015 at 11:02 AM.


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  11. #11
    I don't want people to be told they were right. I want certain people to realize they were wrong about where our program needed to go and its potential, and were wrong in a big, big way. I want those people to keep their mouths shut next time around.

    After that, I want to walk into alumni functions and not find every other conversing group parroting stupid opinions they read on this board (and other boards), and in the worst cases, have to hear how they've sent those opinions to people that matter.


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  12. #12
    The General HD6's Avatar
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    I didn't say that he did.
    "At South Panola we still honor what the word commitment means"-Lance Pogue



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  13. #13
    Administrator DawgatAuburn's Avatar
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    I didn't have any part in making this bed. Yeah, I was critical of the things I referenced above but I'm not enough of an egomaniac to think my complaining had any bearing on what decisions were made. If my complaints had really been heard, we would have had better OOC scheduling, better zone offense, and more sensible substitution patterns. A bed I made Please.....


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  14. #14
    Good post. But I do have one point/question:

    You correctly state that before the Rick Ray debacle, we were not "unified" as a program or fanbase. Half the fanbase was happy and half the fanbase was not with the previous administration. Now, as you correctly state, nobody is happy. But yet this is seen as the right move? I just don't understand how any decisions that led to the current state of our program can be considered anything other than a complete and abysmal failure.


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  15. #15
    The General HD6's Avatar
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    I'm not talking about the actual hiring/firing policies of the university. I mean having to come to the message board and read the same stupid shit day after day. That's what I'm referring to.
    "At South Panola we still honor what the word commitment means"-Lance Pogue



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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Dawg View Post
    I don't want people to be told they were right. I want certain people to realize they were wrong about where our program needed to go and its potential, and were wrong in a big, big way. I want those people to keep their mouths shut next time around.

    After that, I want to walk into alumni functions and not find every other conversing group parroting stupid opinions they read on this board (and other boards), and in the worst cases, have to hear how they've sent those opinions to people that matter.
    This post gets a seal of approval.

    I still am not sure what is worse......stupid people spreading stupid opinions, or our AD actually listening to them?


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  17. #17
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    I am with you 100% ...blows me away that i see in rays 3rd year "Stansbury was never this bad" ok ...what does that have to do with now
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  18. #18
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    I want the vocal MINORITY to admit that they were wrong. There were PLENTY on this board that knew we were not making the 'right' decision. No matter whether firing RS was appropriate, we knew it was not being done correctly. The hysteria of the 'dumpster fire' was being propagated by a few as though it was the truth and that just wasn't the case. We want to hear you few say "we ruined the basketball program". We do not want to hear you blame it on Rick Ray. We want you to say "we should have appreciated how good we had in basketball rather than bitch and moan about how much better we could have had it". Do not blame Scott Stricklin for anything except that he gave in to the vocal minority.


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  19. #19
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHSDawg View Post
    Do not blame Scott Stricklin for anything except that he gave in to the vocal minority.
    This was Strike 2. Strike 1 was apologizing for the Oklahoma State game. Weak.

    However, he has already hit 2 home runs with the football expansion and the baseball stadium. So, if he strikes out, he may get another at-bat. Plus, the count is full due to a good eye (Steudamann, Schafer) and what we have done with the golf team. So either way, Stricklin is pretty safe for now.


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  21. #21
    Administrator DawgatAuburn's Avatar
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    It was stupid because you didn't agree with it, and it certainly hasn't been the only topic beaten to death and beyond on this board. In fact, at the rate we are going the "should we fire RS" argument will be replaced as the longest running topic in SPS history by the "we shouldn't have fired Stans" one.


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  22. #22
    The General HD6's Avatar
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    Let me know when we get there.
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  23. #23
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    He is and he should be. And you are right, the SOS crowd was about the same as the RS must go crowd. When MSU athletics become ND, lets run off winning coaches and schedule whoever we want. UNTIL THEN, lets try to be happy that our program as a whole is gravitating north. We took an enormous step back with the RS situation and damn near blew our momentum with the OKST game. That should be a real lesson here


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  24. #24
    Administrator DawgatAuburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadDawg View Post
    Good post. But I do have one point/question:

    You correctly state that before the Rick Ray debacle, we were not "unified" as a program or fanbase. Half the fanbase was happy and half the fanbase was not with the previous administration. Now, as you correctly state, nobody is happy. But yet this is seen as the right move? I just don't understand how any decisions that led to the current state of our program can be considered anything other than a complete and abysmal failure.
    For the first time in a long time, at least the program has some unity right now...

    That was written with sarcasm. For the last eight years of the Stans era, there was dissatisfaction with what many felt was underachievement. Others were happy with the success we were having and didn't believe we could realistically expect much more. Doesn't matter which opinion was right. Today, not a single person that I know of is happy with the program. Some may be more willing to be patient with RR like some were willing to be with RS, but even those people willing to be patient have grown tired of losing game after game. The unity is because now everyone has seen just how bad it can be. It's not exactly what we all want to be unified around, but losing wears on everyone.


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  25. #25
    Attendance Clown KurtRambis4's Avatar
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    THIS...

    exactly. That's all it is. For the non-stop bitching that went on for nearly a GD decade, is why you see it.


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  26. #26
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    uh, it has to do with the fact that we didn't have to be here right now. What if we were coming off an Orange Bowl, CWS final 2 years ago and playing in the NIT the past 2 years... Wouldn't that be a hell of a lot better than where we are now? Can you people not admit that you were incredibly naÔve to think it was so easy to accomplish what we did under RS?


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  27. #27
    Administrator DawgatAuburn's Avatar
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    Are you implying that we would have been in the NIT the last two years?


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  28. #28
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    Wasn't that what y'all bitched about with Stans so much for?

    And yes, I would be very comfortable in saying Rick Stansbury is at least that much better than Rick Ray.

    There is zero doubt that our recruiting would have been astronomically better and after watching RR for 2+ years, RS was also a much better coach. Those two things combined, we would have definitely be NIT-type teams the past 2 years. What about RS's history suggests we would have suddenly had a drop off of 10+ wins? If nothing else, the man was consistent.

    I mean, damn... Dumpster Fire season he was 21-11 and 6th in the league with a 'firing worthy collapse'


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  29. #29
    I was a Stansbury supporter up until his last year and even I realized that it was time for a change because we were not making the post season and the crowds at the Hump were dwindling. Interest in the program was declining. Something had to be done.

    Fast forward to today and things are so bad that Stansbury's last year almost looks great by comparison. Rick Ray has taken a dumpster fire and pissed nitroglycerine all over it. Right firing. Wrong hiring. Simple as that.

    We have a team of athletes but no basketball players. It is inexcusable to have guys in their third year in the program that have received so much playing time yet still exhibit no signs of improvement. Not a single player.


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  30. #30
    I don't think anybody is wanting Stans back. I think they're simply saying that what we had was a lot better than many perceived. An "I told you so" basically. Most of them are right though, at this point if Stans was still coaching our squad we'd be much better off than we are now.

    There's one thing that's worse than bad publicity...NO publicity.


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  31. #31
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    ^^Very much so on all points^^


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  32. #32
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    Okay ...

    Quote Originally Posted by missouridawg View Post
    Just because Rick Ray has failed, doesn't mean that Stansbury needed to be kept.
    Stans is gone ... he was 'fired.' I was a 'fan' of Stans and I'm pulling for Ray. BUT, the ONE THING that still pisses me off ... is the way the 'firing' and subsequent 'hiring' was miss-handled.

    The AD's main job is to manage the HCs. If you are going to fire a HC, you have GOT to have a 'plan' for his/her replacement. Stans lost control of 'his' team and Stricklin botched the entire replacement process ... from start to finish.

    I have been a BB fan since the time of Babe and have lived through the ... Joe Dan Gold, Kermit Davis, Jim Hatfield & Bob Boyd fiascos. From the mid-'60s until the early '90s under Richard Williams, the basketball program was total crap. Watching 30 years of crappy basketball changes one's perspective.

    For all his faults, Stans took what Williams started and moved State into the upper quarter of the SEC.


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  33. #33
    Administrator DawgatAuburn's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to imply that people are clamoring for him to come back. I'm on board with your four sentences.


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  34. #34
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    Well, that and the fact that we are now beyond awful.


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  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by AHSDawg View Post
    uh, it has to do with the fact that we didn't have to be here right now. What if we were coming off an Orange Bowl, CWS final 2 years ago and playing in the NIT the past 2 years... Wouldn't that be a hell of a lot better than where we are now? Can you people not admit that you were incredibly naÔve to think it was so easy to accomplish what we did under RS?
    Even if it were likely that we would have been NIT teams the last two years when looking at the direction of the program (which seems pretty questionable), it wouldn't be a hell of a lot better. If NIT is the ceiling, I'd just as soon roll the dice.

    And you're also acting like most people thought it was likely we would find a coach that would replicate Stansbury's early success. I'm sure some people thought that would be easy and that some of those people were very vocal about it, but I don't know why you would assume that the majority of people that recognized Stansbury had lost the team would be too dumb to realize it would not be easy to replicate his success.

    Stansbury did very good for a long time and it was always unlikely that we were going to replace him with a coach that replicated his success, especially considering the state of the program. But it was more unlikely that Stansbury was going to be able to get the team back under control. It's just hard to change directions like that.


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  36. #36
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    Count me in the crowd that doesn't mind the Rick Stansbury posts.

    Those of you that don't care about basketball must not have been in the hump during the good years. I feel badly for the current students and recent graduates who missed out on even decent seasons in the Hump. When it's right the Hump is one of the best atmospheres in college basketball, just as Timmy Bowers tweeted this morning.

    Rick Stansbury made a mistake getting in bed with Renardo Sidney. It cost him his job and it robbed the rest of us of an opportunity to watch some very exciting games for the past few years.

    Considering how bad the SEC has been recently we should be in the midst of a multi-year NCAA tourney run and should be competing with Florida for the 2nd/3rd best team in the conference. Admittedly, Kentucky plays a different game than the rest of us, but State should at least be getting the bye in the first round of the SEC Tourney.

    On a related topic, the re-seating of the Hump is a disaster, and has contributed to the dismal atmosphere in the program. We took seats from crazy college kids who got there 2 hours early on a Wednesday night, and gave them to donors who sit on their hands if they even bother to show up. At the very least we should put students back on the sidelines behind the benches so the Hump looks full on TV.

    We have a much better chance of competing for SEC championships in basketball than we do football, and when its cold outside and the days are short, I look forward to watching State play hoops.

    I disagree that we cannot be elite in all three sports. We went to the Final 4 in '96, the CWS in '97 & '98, and the SEC Championship Game in '98. It can be done.


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  37. #37
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    No i don't think I was naive just because Rick Ray hasn't won here doesn't mean we can't win here. It was time for a change with Rick Stansbury. The whole team was leaving, he had coached back to back dumpster fires, and he had lost the team ...he was also UNWILLING to change any of his staff!


    Firing Rick Stansbury had nothing to do with our next hire. I agree the hire in year 3 looks bad, forget the roster implications or the injuries, bad luck, no luck, not our problem ...plenty could have been done differently during Rays tenure

    Also we as a fanbase can say we wanted Stansbury fired or it was time and not get a say so in who we hired ...a bad hire doesn't say we needed to give Rick one more year ...a bad hire should have said we will continue to look and examine this until we believe Ray is the guy we want ...However we have given him 3 years and now I believe his job is on the line ...he may get a forth, but I think he needs 5-6 SEC wins to do it
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  38. #38
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    Hopefully we will quit dicking around and get out the checkbook. We need a big time coach before the rest of the SEC decides to play basketball again. Take advantage of this window of relative terribleness in the conference.


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  39. #39

    Its called "payback".....

    The "chickens coming home to roost", "I told you so", and any number of other cliche's.

    It isn't going to bring Stans back. It isn't going to help our program. It isn't intended to do either. Of course it has all been said already many times over. A debate is not the point. The primary reason is to give the Stans bashers Hell after having to put up with them on here for YEARS pushing for his dismissal. Yes it is annoying. That is part of the point.


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  40. #40
    My dad and I had this conversation last night. Sword, Thomas, and Ware are the exact same players they were when they got here. That's not all on the coach but he has to take the lion share of the blame.


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