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  1. #1

    The 600 lb. Baby Elephant in the room.

    Has Shoopís move to a 4-2-5 Defense been an instant failure? Would we be struggling as bad with a 7 man front instead of a 6 man front? Even with the occasional Corner or safety blitz, they have either been picked up or just didnít get there in time. Brian Cole III got there from about 20 yards away Saturday but he hid it well and timed his jump perfectly. You could see he was going to get there from the stands. But, with only 2 linebackers, seems to be more open space to each side 8 to 10 yards downfield after the WR drag the Corners deeper.


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  2. #2
    Losing Sweat, Simmons and Abram had to play a part in Shoop's decision. Those three could make any defense more productive. He must have felt like he didn't have the talent available to continue with the same alignment this year.
    The game is always bigger than us, and it's always teaching us.


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  3. #3
    They sure made him seem like someone we couldnít afford to lose. Turns out no one came calling. Weird.


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  4. #4
    DCs are always overrated, IMO. If you have the talent on the field, they're gonna make you look good. When they leave, you look helpless.
    The game is always bigger than us, and it's always teaching us.


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  5. #5
    Did we not run a 4-2-5 last year as well? Legitimately asking, I was under the impression we did. I know there were times we showed a 4-3 look but I remember a lot of 4-2-5. Started off the year with Cole at STAR and Abram and McLaurin in the back. Then Landrews replaced Cole. Then Abram slid up to replace Landrews and we played Morgan in the back.

    The Shoop bashing by some of our fans has been crazy to me. Anyone who can’t recognize that this defense is being really hurt by the losses from last year and the suspensions is not paying attention. And the guy had really good defenses at Vandy and Penn State too with less talent than what he had last year. I know his Tennessee stint wasn’t good but everything about that program has been garbage for over a decade so he probably deserves to be cut a little slack there.

    We’re in a bind on the DL and at safety right now and missing Gay at LB. But sure, it’s all Shoop’s fault. I thought he did a good job of making adjustments against K-State for the most part. We weren’t just great on defense, especially early, but the vast majority of the points we gave up were either on special teams or when we had to defend a short field. Our defense the last two years spoiled us, this group isn’t as good but they’re a mess personnel wise and still not just terrible.
    Last edited by MSUDC11; 09-19-2019 at 06:47 AM.


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  6. #6
    I thought this was a post about Matt Luke.


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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSUDC11 View Post
    Did we not run a 4-2-5 last year as well? Legitimately asking, I was under the impression we did. I know there were times we showed a 4-3 look but I remember a lot of 4-2-5. Started off the year with Cole at STAR and Abram and McLaurin in the back. Then Landrews replaced Cole. Then Abram slid up to replace Landrews and we played Morgan in the back.
    You are correct. We ran a 4-2-5 base and ran a lot of 4-3 as well just as we are doing this year.


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  8. #8
    ďAnyone who canít recognize that this defense isnít being really hurt by the losses from last year and the suspensions is not paying attentionĒ

    Legitimate question. Is there a typo in there?


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  9. #9
    We leave receivers uncovered with 5 DBís. we look confused on pre snap alignment.
    Iím not sure the type of defense is the issue.


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  10. #10
    Msubulldogfan1's Avatar
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    I know we love to bitch, but letís be honest too.

    We 17ing starting two freshmen DTs and playing some more freshmen behind them...and missing our best LB, and our best corner last game.

    We all underestimated how severe being that young up the middle would be. It is what it is. Not even Jefferey Simmons was good as a freshmen.

    And itís not Shoops fault we donít practice tackling and Thompson looks 20 lbs overweight.


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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by KingCharlesSpaniel View Post
    You are correct. We ran a 4-2-5 base and ran a lot of 4-3 as well just as we are doing this year.
    We ran VERY little 4-3 last year, almost exclusively 4-2, which is what you have to do against all these spread teams in 11 personnel. We ran more 3-2-6 dime than we did 4-3 because we got opponents in 3rd and long so often.

    The 4-2 has nothing to do with why we aren't as good this year. It's all about the talent.


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  12. #12
    With the talent we had last year on defense any of us on this board would have looked good as dc. Shoop may be really good, but last year he underperformed. The whole team and coaches underperformed. No way last year kentucky should have beaten us.


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  13. #13
    The 600 lb baby elephant is how our DL gets absolutely zero pressure on the QB. This will kill us in SEC play. Reminds me of 2012 - even Banks and Slay couldnít cover guys long enough because we got no pressure from our front four (that year we inexplicably had Eulls playing DE instead of DT, with Preston Smith backing him up - while we struggled to find a DT to start alongside Josh Boyd).


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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Msubulldogfan1 View Post
    I know we love to bitch, but letís be honest too.

    We 17ing starting two freshmen DTs and playing some more freshmen behind them...and missing our best LB, and our best corner last game.

    We all underestimated how severe being that young up the middle would be. It is what it is. Not even Jefferey Simmons was good as a freshmen.

    And itís not Shoops fault we donít practice tackling and Thompson looks 20 lbs overweight.
    I love Gay but Thompson is a beast. Hes not as athletic but makes plays. Always around the football. But we are definitely missing Gay as the other with Lewis giving each breaks.
    The biggest drop is DL play. We lost a ton of talent and experience there. The fact a safety leads us in TFLs and Sacks is concerning. Chauncey Rivers has not lived up to hype. Not getting pressure or sacks is a big issue.
    I still think the defense was not the reason we lost Saturday though. The offense just couldn't keep it going in the 4th quarter.


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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by triton28 View Post
    ďAnyone who canít recognize that this defense isnít being really hurt by the losses from last year and the suspensions is not paying attentionĒ

    Legitimate question. Is there a typo in there?
    There was, fixed now.


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  16. #16

    Add Gay, Autry, and Murphy to that list, the hit is substantial.

    nm
    I don't always drink but when I do I become a message board genius**


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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bruiser View Post
    Has Shoopís move to a 4-2-5 Defense been an instant failure? Would we be struggling as bad with a 7 man front instead of a 6 man front? Even with the occasional Corner or safety blitz, they have either been picked up or just didnít get there in time. Brian Cole III got there from about 20 yards away Saturday but he hid it well and timed his jump perfectly. You could see he was going to get there from the stands. But, with only 2 linebackers, seems to be more open space to each side 8 to 10 yards downfield after the WR drag the Corners deeper.
    The 4-2-5 is a misnomer, I think. The STAR position that Brian Cole plays is essentially the 3rd Backer, right? Just a hybrid one?


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  18. #18
    Defense has not been the problem this year per se. We all expected and knew they would take a step back, and honestly, they held their own Saturday. It was the offense that was supposed to pull the weight this year, and they haven't due to injury and the incompetence of the offensive line. All you can really expect your defense to do is keep you in games, and they did that Saturday.

    Shoop and the D is not the issue here.


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  19. #19
    Considering the losses I think our defense has played reasonably well. We were the #1 scoring D in country last year. We lost 3 players in the 1st of round of the NFL draft and have 2 starters suspended. There is only so much you can scheme when the middle of your d-line is a bunch of freshman. I hope Schoop sticks around, because in a few years we are gonna be nasty on D.


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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoDawg View Post
    There is only so much you can scheme when the middle of your d-line is a bunch of freshman. I hope Schoop sticks around, because in a few years we are gonna be nasty on D.
    What would be really neat is if we had an offensive guru who could make up for our defensive losses by really lighting up the scoreboard. That would be swell.


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  21. #21
    Also, he was rotating in and out with a linebacker all day Saturday depending on down and distance. Defense had its issues, but if we had gotten the same level of performance from the offense and special teams, we would have won the game.


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  22. #22
    The ideal system for us at MSU is a 3-3-5. I've heard analysts say this is the future of college football. Basically, it's a 3-4 with an extra DB. This gets more speed on the field and allows you to bring pressure from a lot of different spots. It's also a lot easier to find LB's, Safeties, and Hybrids than it is to find Jeff Simmons type players.


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  23. #23
    Mayor of Little London's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsDawg View Post
    The ideal system for us at MSU is a 3-3-5. I've heard analysts say this is the future of college football. Basically, it's a 3-4 with an extra DB. This gets more speed on the field and allows you to bring pressure from a lot of different spots. It's also a lot easier to find LB's, Safeties, and Hybrids than it is to find Jeff Simmons type players.
    Bring back joe lee?!?!


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  24. #24
    In what world did the defense underperform last year? They only gave up 12 TDs in the whole regular season. They finished #1 in the nation. What were your expectations of the defense?


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  25. #25
    IBleedMaroonDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSUDC11 View Post
    Did we not run a 4-2-5 last year as well? Legitimately asking, I was under the impression we did. I know there were times we showed a 4-3 look but I remember a lot of 4-2-5. Started off the year with Cole at STAR and Abram and McLaurin in the back. Then Landrews replaced Cole. Then Abram slid up to replace Landrews and we played Morgan in the back.

    The Shoop bashing by some of our fans has been crazy to me. Anyone who canít recognize that this defense is being really hurt by the losses from last year and the suspensions is not paying attention. And the guy had really good defenses at Vandy and Penn State too with less talent than what he had last year. I know his Tennessee stint wasnít good but everything about that program has been garbage for over a decade so he probably deserves to be cut a little slack there.

    Weíre in a bind on the DL and at safety right now and missing Gay at LB. But sure, itís all Shoopís fault. I thought he did a good job of making adjustments against K-State for the most part. We werenít just great on defense, especially early, but the vast majority of the points we gave up were either on special teams or when we had to defend a short field. Our defense the last two years spoiled us, this group isnít as good but theyíre a mess personnel wise and still not just terrible.
    Quite honestly, our defense is one of the few spots we improved at least a little bit. They played well in the second half but got no help from our offense. We couldn't make a first down in critical spots but they kept us in the game until we gave up the kickoff TD.


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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by rebsgoingdown View Post
    With the talent we had last year on defense any of us on this board would have looked good as dc. Shoop may be really good, but last year he underperformed. The whole team and coaches underperformed. No way last year kentucky should have beaten us.
    My God, man, do you really believe the defense last year under performed? We gave up one TD at home last year. Shoop is one of the best things about the program right now. He made adjustments in the KSU game that gave us a good chance to win. At one time late in the second half, KSU had minus 2 yards rushing (for the second half).


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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor of Little London View Post
    Bring back joe lee?!?!
    No, thanks. The Joe Lee version of the Dog safeties couldn't cover slot receivers. Eric Brown or Pig would be nice hybrid players in a 3-3-5 though.


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  28. #28

    Joe Lee

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsDawg View Post
    No, thanks. The Joe Lee version of the Dog safeties couldn't cover slot receivers. Eric Brown or Pig would be nice hybrid players in a 3-3-5 though.
    I remember JL even running a 2-9 defense, fairly frequently.


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  29. #29
    Of all the things to bitch about, Bob Shoop isnít one of them. Heís a good defensive coordinator that is dealing with a lot of personnel turnover and suspensions. The defense will continue to improve over the course of the season


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  30. #30
    TaleofTwoDogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerbully View Post
    DCs are always overrated, IMO. If you have the talent on the field, they're gonna make you look good. When they leave, you look helpless.
    You probably can say that about any of the field coaches including the HC.


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