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  1. #81
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    Here's Pinelake's budget info from last year that I found online. For comparison, when I visited FBC Starkville they were voting on their budget which was ~3m.

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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by JML105 View Post
    So Pinelake's official satellite campus's are in Clinton, Gluckstadt, Starkville, and Oxford with Starkville and Oxford catering to the college crowd. Gluckstadt campus is obviously planted in an area of rapid growth among mainly young middle class families. So counting on college kids and over extended young families to make Pinelake and its pastors rich? I'm not seeing your point adding up here.
    Pinelake's motto should be, "We build churches where they don't need churches." I believe Jesus himself is quoted as saying, "the well don't need a doctor," when defending the time he was spending with "ner do wells."


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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by JML105 View Post
    Here's Pinelake's budget info from last year that I found online. For comparison, when I visited FBC Starkville they were voting on their budget which was ~3m.

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    This type of secretive budgeting has always irked me (I've been a member over 20 years). Why not show where every dollar goes? The budgets of small churches often show the exact dollar amount everyone makes down to the part-time secretary. If the church is not ashamed of the salaries, then show them. Public employees (those paid by taxpayers) have public salaries, ministers supported by congregational tithes should be held to the same standard.
    Last edited by greenbean; 10-09-2019 at 08:19 PM.


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  4. #84
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    You say those areas don’t need churches yet the data shows each campus is full for multiple services every Sunday. I heard that they’re also evaluating opening a campus in the Delta.


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  5. #85

    Exactly, and that's part of why I like his stuff.

    I knew him back then too. He was a good dude, certainly no angel, and he would tell you that himself today. I think that's why his sermons resonate with a lot of people who aren't perfect and don't pretend to be. He speaks from experience, and if you know him you know what he says is genuine.


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  6. #86

    I'm not an expert, but yeah that sounds like what they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher_dawg View Post
    For those that know Pinelake and what expository preaching is (preaching through books of the Bible), do they practice it, or is it something like 5 ways to improve your life?
    The last few weeks has been a series walking through Colossians, basically one chapter/passage at a time. I guess that's expository?


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  7. #87
    You don't think college kids need welcoming churches? And just because someone is perceived to have money, they don't need Jesus? I've got news for you, the people in Gluckstadt/Clinton/wherever you name, need it just as much as you, me or anybody else.


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  8. #88
    99 % of Organized religion is a joke anyway. Most preachers fleece the flock for $$$$$$ don't teach true bible doctrines, Christ was never called a preacher he was a teacher and never took money for what he did. I have known a lot of preachers in my lifetime and can honestly say they were the greediest people and worse fornicators than members of their flock. Maybe back 150 years ago ministers were humble and cared about the flock but that's not what I see now. Too many Joel Osteens out there!


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  9. #89
    Churches should have to file a Form 990 with the IRS, just like non-profits do. There's a lot of information in those forms and it's all put up on a public database that anyone with an Internet connection can search.


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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by greenbean View Post
    This type of secretive budgeting has always irked me (I've been a member over 20 years). Why not show where every dollar goes? The budgets of small churches often show the exact dollar amount everyone makes down to the part-time secretary. If the church is not ashamed of the salaries, then show them. Public employees (those paid by taxpayers) have public salaries, ministers supported by congregational tithes should be held to the same standard.
    A good friend of mine is a baptist pastor in Louisiana, but he used to lead a large church up here back in the 90s. In those days, his salary was 90k, which was extremely large for that time. People were critical of that, but what they didn't know is that he gave about half of that back to the church in tithes and offerings. Most pastors who are true Godly leaders do similar things with their salary.

    As far as "secretive budgeting" goes, larger churches have a committee that handles these things. A pastor just doesn't pay himself, or decide to hire and pay buddies of his. Every dime is requisitioned and approved. I don't think it's necessary to show an accounting for every dollar, as long as I know good stewards are in place. That said, if you want to know where every dollar is going, there is someone there that will give you that information.


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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drebin View Post
    A good friend of mine is a baptist pastor in Louisiana, but he used to lead a large church up here back in the 90s. In those days, his salary was 90k, which was extremely large for that time. People were critical of that, but what they didn't know is that he gave about half of that back to the church in tithes and offerings. Most pastors who are true Godly leaders do similar things with their salary.

    As far as "secretive budgeting" goes, larger churches have a committee that handles these things. A pastor just doesn't pay himself, or decide to hire and pay buddies of his. Every dime is requisitioned and approved. I don't think it's necessary to show an accounting for every dollar, as long as I know good stewards are in place. That said, if you want to know where every dollar is going, there is someone there that will give you that information.
    This.


    A lot of y'all are being a little hypocritical. The large majority of the pastors I know work their asses off and are under much more stress than most people are in their secular careers. It's kind of sad that y'all don't think they earn a salary that reflects the amount of work they do and accountability they have. Maybe y'all should look at it like this... They don't get paid for being a teacher/preacher on Wednesday nights, Sunday mornings, and all the time they put in prepping for those sermons. They get paid for being the General Manager of whatever Church or ministry they are in charge of. The larger the Church or ministry, the larger the pay. Just like every other career. With that said, I guess one could argue that motivates a preacher to grow their church as much as possible so their pay goes up as well; but I guess that I believe that most pastors are more motivated by souls being saved and relationships being created than having more money in their personal bank account. Maybe I'm being naive or maybe I just have faith in the people that I believe God put in place to lead his Church body.


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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by JML105 View Post
    This.


    A lot of y'all are being a little hypocritical. The large majority of the pastors I know work their asses off and are under much more stress than most people are in their secular careers. It's kind of sad that y'all don't think they earn a salary that reflects the amount of work they do and accountability they have. Maybe y'all should look at it like this... They don't get paid for being a teacher/preacher on Wednesday nights, Sunday mornings, and all the time they put in prepping for those sermons. They get paid for being the General Manager of whatever Church or ministry they are in charge of. The larger the Church or ministry, the larger the pay. Just like every other career. With that said, I guess one could argue that motivates a preacher to grow their church as much as possible so their pay goes up as well; but I guess that I believe that most pastors are more motivated by souls being saved and relationships being created than having more money in their personal bank account. Maybe I'm being naive or maybe I just have faith in the people that I believe God put in place to lead his Church body.
    Anybody that works off donations will be subject to a lot of scrutiny.


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  13. #93
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    But don't you think its wrong to scrutinize if you don't do the research and know all of the facts? I know there are some crooks and scammers out there, but it's not okay to lump all mega church leaders in the same bucket.


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  14. #94
    I was simply admitting that I'm cynical about how these large churches always feel led to plant churches right in upcoming prosperous areas. I'm even more cynical when the church is in a declining metro area that has a community population that no longer reflects the churches demographic. Furthermore, my point was that there were plenty of churches in the areas where these (that I'm thinking of) were planted, so they basically turned up a new shiny venue with good speaking and a good band and attracted people from other neighboring churches to the newest shiniest thing around. And people do that because we are attracted to new. Go count the number of "new and improved" products on the grocery shelves. The marketing folks have us figured out well.

    I also made comments about how some of these guys are good at relating stories and everyone walking away feeling great while not really digging into the tough parts of the Bible.

    So, since overall church attendance is declining, I don't believe that what many of these people are doing is reaching people who "need Jesus". They are just working to position themselves to grab part of an affluent population and move them over from a neighboring church that has been planted in the community for quite some time.

    There is nothing inherently "wrong" about being an attractional church, I just would like to see some of these church plants go into impoverished communities and try to provide some hope in a hopeless situation, maybe siphon off some of that Madison giving to reach the poor and homeless in Jackson? I do see some examples of that, but not enough.


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  15. #95
    How do you feel about Paul making the rounds to all of the Jewish strongholds preaching the Gospel and raising funds so he could reach Asia? A whole lot of Paul's travel was to be able to fund the founding of a church in Asia.

    Also, Joel Olsteen is not a preacher of the Bible and in other breaking news Westboro Baptist Church is not a church (at least not one that practices Biblical principles). It matters not how you label yourself. Unfortunately most people make no distinction and they aren't likely to actually read the source material to find out if what is being espoused is actually truly supported by the Bible.


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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by patdog View Post
    Churches should have to file a Form 990 with the IRS, just like non-profits do. There's a lot of information in those forms and it's all put up on a public database that anyone with an Internet connection can search.
    I think churches and other non-profit institutions should have to pay income taxes. I don't understand why they don't have to pay for government service just like you and me.

    Then, they would file their 990s - with a check.


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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    How do you feel about Paul making the rounds to all of the Jewish strongholds preaching the Gospel and raising funds so he could reach Asia? A whole lot of Paul's travel was to be able to fund the founding of a church in Asia.

    Also, Joel Olsteen is not a preacher of the Bible and in other breaking news Westboro Baptist Church is not a church (at least not one that practices Biblical principles). It matters not how you label yourself. Unfortunately most people make no distinction and they aren't likely to actually read the source material to find out if what is being espoused is actually truly supported by the Bible.
    What text in the bible states Paul requested funds.? Paul was a tent maker by trade that's how. He supported himself. Christmas overturned the money tables and ran them out of the temple because the religious leaders were fleecing the people just like they do today.


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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    I was simply admitting that I'm cynical about how these large churches always feel led to plant churches right in upcoming prosperous areas. I'm even more cynical when the church is in a declining metro area that has a community population that no longer reflects the churches demographic. Furthermore, my point was that there were plenty of churches in the areas where these (that I'm thinking of) were planted, so they basically turned up a new shiny venue with good speaking and a good band and attracted people from other neighboring churches to the newest shiniest thing around. And people do that because we are attracted to new. Go count the number of "new and improved" products on the grocery shelves. The marketing folks have us figured out well.

    I also made comments about how some of these guys are good at relating stories and everyone walking away feeling great while not really digging into the tough parts of the Bible.

    So, since overall church attendance is declining, I don't believe that what many of these people are doing is reaching people who "need Jesus". They are just working to position themselves to grab part of an affluent population and move them over from a neighboring church that has been planted in the community for quite some time.

    There is nothing inherently "wrong" about being an attractional church, I just would like to see some of these church plants go into impoverished communities and try to provide some hope in a hopeless situation, maybe siphon off some of that Madison giving to reach the poor and homeless in Jackson? I do see some examples of that, but not enough.
    My hope and prayer is that my church will soon be in a position to plant churches, and sure, that will probably mean some in more affluent areas, but my biggest heart is for inner city Rochester. My heart is broken for that ****hole of a city every day. I use the language because any who goes there needs to understand what it is. One can't mince words.


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  19. #99
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    So what is your alternative to organized religion? I'm really curious because I have a certain level of cynicism toward the modern day church as well; but I also find it a place that presents organized ways for my family and I to serve/give, be in community with other Christ followers which promotes spiritual health, to worship as we are directed to do, and to learn.


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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by baddawggy View Post
    What text in the bible states Paul requested funds.? Paul was a tent maker by trade that's how. He supported himself. Christmas overturned the money tables and ran them out of the temple because the religious leaders were fleecing the people just like they do today.
    I would encourage you to go read the Acts and all of Paul's letters and then come back and tell me that he wasn't collecting funds. This is a well established fact that he needed money to go to Asia to support churches made up of people who really couldn't financially support it themselves. He was starting a new kind of church that even welcomed gentiles, but it was outside of the normal economy of the Jewish temple and therefore was very much in bootstrap mode. Kinda weird to think about it that way but basically that was true.

    Please also go read about exactly how the temple worked in that time and what the money changers were doing and what upset Jesus so much about what they were doing. To your point, some of the people who would hold themselves up as church leaders don't look much different today, but your net is a bit wide and makes me think that you've been hurt by A church and then characterized nearly ALL churches as the same, which is not accurate.


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  21. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    I would encourage you to go read the Acts and all of Paul's letters and then come back and tell me that he wasn't collecting funds. This is a well established fact that he needed money to go to Asia to support churches made up of people who really couldn't financially support it themselves. He was starting a new kind of church that even welcomed gentiles, but it was outside of the normal economy of the Jewish temple and therefore was very much in bootstrap mode. Kinda weird to think about it that way but basically that was true.

    Please also go read about exactly how the temple worked in that time and what the money changers were doing and what upset Jesus so much about what they were doing. To your point, some of the people who would hold themselves up as church leaders don't look much different today, but your net is a bit wide and makes me think that you've been hurt by A church and then characterized nearly ALL churches as the same, which is not accurate.
    1st--- I have read Acts over and over and there is no place Paul requested money for his ministry ...nowhere that's why you cant show me a passage that verifies your claim. He tells the congregation to look after orphans and widows. Paul was not starting a new church but was inviting gentiles to join the "WAY" which is what it was called.

    The money changers were screwing over the people charging outrageous prices for sacrificial animals and they were supposed to be spiritual leaders. Today preachers do the same asking for tithes which is no longer scriptural either! Tithing was only done to support the Levitical Priest who could not hold jobs and if you want to get technical tithing required giving a 10% of everything not just money.

    My problem with Religion is its a racket for money there would be very few preachers if any if they were not paid. Remember they are supposed to imitate Jesus who never got paid. One day the Government whom I work for is going to get tired of preachers meddling in Politics and tax the large estates that many have....that's you Catholic church and others. Religion is responsible and have backed the majority of wars and bloodshed throughout history. Remember thou shall not kill! It will be a fine day in my book when religion is no more. I know this will upset many but its truth that will set you free from religion that is hypocritical!


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  22. #102
    Oh my... probably lock time. My apologies to the mods for my contribution.


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  23. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by baddawggy View Post
    1st--- I have read Acts over and over and there is no place Paul requested money for his ministry ...nowhere that's why you cant show me a passage that verifies your claim. He tells the congregation to look after orphans and widows. Paul was not starting a new church but was inviting gentiles to join the "WAY" which is what it was called.

    The money changers were screwing over the people charging outrageous prices for sacrificial animals and they were supposed to be spiritual leaders. Today preachers do the same asking for tithes which is no longer scriptural either! Tithing was only done to support the Levitical Priest who could not hold jobs and if you want to get technical tithing required giving a 10% of everything not just money.

    My problem with Religion is its a racket for money there would be very few preachers if any if they were not paid. Remember they are supposed to imitate Jesus who never got paid. One day the Government whom I work for is going to get tired of preachers meddling in Politics and tax the large estates that many have....that's you Catholic church and others. Religion is responsible and have backed the majority of wars and bloodshed throughout history. Remember thou shall not kill! It will be a fine day in my book when religion is no more. I know this will upset many but its truth that will set you free from religion that is hypocritical!
    I agree with some, maybe even most of what you said. I don't push tithing, and I am not so sure 10% is Biblical either. I would point to 1Timothy 5:17-18: 17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”

    With that being said, I am always sympathatic to viewpoints like yourself. I do find a lot of preachers are in it for the money, and I strive not to point fingers, other than to say I'm sorry if you were hurt by a pastor. Please pray for me, that I not be one of those.
    Last edited by preacher_dawg; 10-10-2019 at 06:23 PM.


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  24. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by preacher_dawg View Post
    I agree with some, maybe even most of what you said. I don't push tithing, and I am not so sure 10% is Biblical either. I would point to q Timothy 5:17-18: 17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”

    With that being said, I am always sympathatic to viewpoints like yourself. I do find a lot of preachers are in it for the money, and I strive not to point fingers, other than to say I'm sorry if you were hurt by a pastor. Please pray for me, that I not be one of those.
    11

    Paul’s words you just quoted indicate that material help can rightly be given to those looking after the spiritual interests of others. However, this does not mean that preachers should receive a salary, and “double honor” surely is not something exacted by an preacher. It may come from the congregation’s members spontaneously, but he must never use his assignment to gain power or material possessions. He should not seek his own glory or associate mainly with the more prosperous ones for material advantage and to the neglect of others.
    Rather, a preacher must shepherd God’s flock ‘willingly, not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly.’—1 Peter 5:2.

    I am not implying you are this type just stating a generality of my observations of most preachers. And I am one of the biggest sinners on this board I don't think you want my prayers!

    Praise the Lord and go Dogs!


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  25. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Drebin View Post

    As far as "secretive budgeting" goes, larger churches have a committee that handles these things. A pastor just doesn't pay himself, or decide to hire and pay buddies of his. Every dime is requisitioned and approved. I don't think it's necessary to show an accounting for every dollar, as long as I know good stewards are in place. That said, if you want to know where every dollar is going, there is someone there that will give you that information.

    Apparently you haven't heard of what happened at Broadmore (two years ago is was likely only second to Pinelake in scope and influence in the state): 332000-embezzled.html. The preacher stole money for more than two years.

    If you believe you are handling the money in accordance with God's will and biblical teaching, don't be afraid to publish a detailed budget. Other non-profits have to do it.


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  26. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by baddawggy View Post
    11

    Paul’s words you just quoted indicate that material help can rightly be given to those looking after the spiritual interests of others. However, this does not mean that preachers should receive a salary, and “double honor” surely is not something exacted by an preacher. It may come from the congregation’s members spontaneously, but he must never use his assignment to gain power or material possessions. He should not seek his own glory or associate mainly with the more prosperous ones for material advantage and to the neglect of others.
    Rather, a preacher must shepherd God’s flock ‘willingly, not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly.’—1 Peter 5:2.

    I am not implying you are this type just stating a generality of my observations of most preachers. And I am one of the biggest sinners on this board I don't think you want my prayers!

    Praise the Lord and go Dogs!
    Thanks for replying, and if you're a Christian, I absolutly covet your prayers, maybe more than others because I think you see the pitfalls of ministry very well. What about the wages part from 1 Timothy?

    I can only say from my experience what my days and nights are like. They are filled with studying, visiting widows and shut-ins, those that are sick and are desperate, committee meetings almost every other day, sometimes twice a day, counseling troubled marriages and parents, and being a peacemaker. I often don't have the time for everything on my plate, much less if I had another job. I am paid more than I ever have in my life, and yet I still struggle financially. (One day about a few months ago, my bank account was 57 cents, partly because we had to pay a babysitter for a week while my wife and I went to our denomination's general assembly. Another time, it was down to about $2. Like many pastors, ministry expenses sometimes come out of our own pocket.) Again, yes, there are many of us who do this for "dishonest gain" but not all of us.


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  27. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Junction John View Post
    I think it's mainly from people who haven't been to the church, or who haven't heard Chip preach. In my experience, most people who haven't been have simply heard it's really big, so they assume "mega church" and if they had heard Chip even once, they wouldn't put him on the same planet as a Joel Osteen or whoever.

    Chip is a huge Bulldog, loves to hunt, lives in Flowood, and drives an F-150. He's about as down the middle typical SPS'er as you would find, and I'm about 100% sure he would be posting here if God hadn't yanked him up about 30 years ago.
    I've probably heard more of Chip's sermons than anyone on this board. He is a great speaker (best I've heard next to Francis Chan) and would be successful at any career he chose, if he were in professional sales, he would lead the country. I think even Chip is worried about the money he brings in, after all, one of the issues Jesus taught most about was money. Chip may feel a little trapped, he is the engine that drives everything, if he stepped down to write books or focus on other interests involving ministry, a lot of people would stop coming and the church would be in serious trouble.


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  28. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by preacher_dawg View Post
    Thanks for replying, and if you're a Christian, I absolutly covet your prayers, maybe more than others because I think you see the pitfalls of ministry very well. What about the wages part from 1 Timothy?

    I can only say from my experience what my days and nights are like. They are filled with studying, visiting widows and shut-ins, those that are sick and are desperate, committee meetings almost every other day, sometimes twice a day, counseling troubled marriages and parents, and being a peacemaker. I often don't have the time for everything on my plate, much less if I had another job. I am paid more than I ever have in my life, and yet I still struggle financially. (One day about a few months ago, my bank account was 57 cents, partly because we had to pay a babysitter for a week while my wife and I went to our denomination's general assembly. Another time, it was down to about $2. Like many pastors, ministry expenses sometimes come out of our own pocket.) Again, yes, there are many of us who do this for "dishonest gain" but not all of us.
    You sound like my father who was a minister for 52 years....as a child we almost starved to death. He would not accept a salary and worked fulltime also. You sound like a good man also its never wrong to give of yourself for others I wish you the best sincerely.


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  29. #109
    This has been an interesting thread. I think each post here has at least some aspect that I agree with. “Church” in the US is changing and I think it’s a good thing. It has gone off track and the message has been lost to some degree. I think there is a reset of sorts on the way, in which those who are actually interested in being a disciple of Christ will once again become a source of hope and help for those who struggle so badly to survive, much less thrive in our society. The message of forgiveness and reconciliation to God as well as our neighbor is still powerful and life changing. I think it is still relevant and much needed in our culture. Modern “Christianity” has not reflected Christ for too long. As believers return to The Way, the Church will become a blessing to the broken and needy, as is intended. The Church as we know it may disappear but the Body of Christ will not, and I’m encouraged and hopeful for the future.

    Also I’m still mad at Moorhead for last year. Hopefully that makes this post sound less pious and religious, because I hate when people come off that way.


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  30. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by preacher_dawg View Post
    My hope and prayer is that my church will soon be in a position to plant churches, and sure, that will probably mean some in more affluent areas, but my biggest heart is for inner city Rochester. My heart is broken for that ****hole of a city every day. I use the language because any who goes there needs to understand what it is. One can't mince words.
    Wait where do you live?


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  31. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
    Wait where do you live?
    Upstate New York, Bills country


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  32. #112
    Most people associate “the preacher” with the senior pastor. The Broadmoor situation involved the church’s business/administrative pastor/minister, not “the preacher,” as it were. Yes, the buck stops with senior leadership, but the senior pastor did not embezzle funds.
    “I’m not going to take anything off the table at this point in time ... but I will tell you this,” Cohen began, “this person is going to have serious baseball experience as a head coach. This person is going to have made trips to Omaha, Nebraska. This person is going to have expertise in an area of the game and in all facets of the game. And this person is going to make our fan base very happy.” - Intense Bastard, April 5, 2018.


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