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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by patdog View Post
    Ha ha. Keep moving those expectations. This is exactly what you guys were saying about 2021 last year.
    I think a lot of people recognized it would likely take until year three to really click in this offense. The moving the goal post is that we shouldn't need to click to beat Memphis.

    The good news for the pessimists like you is that we are so shitty right now that it's not a scheme issue. The scheme may not be (and almost certainly isn't) helping, but the knock on the air raid is not that you can't beat Memphis with it. We are just shitty on offense because we are shitty right now, so maybe the air raid will work if we learn how to run it.


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  2. #42
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    No, reaffirmed my doubts.


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  3. #43
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    stay in the closet


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  4. #44
    I didn't love the Leach hire when we made it but was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's obviously won plenty of games and had some record-breaking offenses. So I was fine with taking a Wait and See approach. But the thing that has started to frustrate me about him is that there never seems to be a Plan B. When you have 1st and Goal from the 3, and call four straight pass plays, that's just dumb coaching. Especially when everyone on Planet Earth knows you're going to call pass plays. Try calling a run play just to catch the other guys off guard.

    I realize last year was a crazy, unprecedented year and that we're only three games into this year but the signs aren't especially promising, even beyond the Memphis game. I'd be happy if he proved me wrong. But my Wait and See is quickly turning into I've Seen Enough.


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  5. #45
    Absolutely not! It didn't change my opinion on SEC referees either. They have been screwing MSU for years and were just more obvious with it against Memphis. If a game we should have won changes your opinion of a coach then you must be wavering in the wind about everything that happens in the world.

    We knew when we hired him it would take time for his system to develop. We knew that we were a young football team. Some of you need to learn patience!


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  6. #46
    no, my OPINION of leach and cohen has not changed because of the memphis game!

    i still like leach just as much as i did before if not more which is a lot.

    i still don't like cohen--i believe it was a huge mistake to hire him as a coach and an even worse mistake to make him AD! the only good thing to come out of his tenure are lemonis and leach. he has pretty much screwed up everything else and if anybody needs to be fired it's cohen!

    that was my OPINION and i realize that many disagree. i also realize that cohen has many disciples here but it's disheartening to see people jumping on leach so early in the season. if he had a QB who didn't throw it behind the receivers and could make a decision quicker, that memphis game would never been in question, but the QB is young and will either get better or be replaced.


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  7. #47
    It didn’t change anything for me. I am still in wait and see mode probably for the remainder of this season unless we do something like lose to Vandy, and I also don’t think we are good enough to prove definitively this year that it will work. Whether we go 4-8 or 7-5, people know he’s getting a Year 3 and that’s the all important one. For both Leach and Cohen.

    With a coach like Leach who is known for some pretty stupid losses even with good teams, I’m still open to the possibility that maybe this was just one of those and we won’t totally suck the rest of the year. We very well could, but I personally am willing to wait it out a bit longer.


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  8. #48
    He refuses to run the ball until the defense plays a 4th DL. When the defense can’t drop 8 the air raid takes off. Pelini learned the hard way.

    Leach stops Leach.


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  9. #49
    I am a Leach fan and I also think its gonna take time to get this system rolling. I know it is predicated on a good experienced QB. Every interview the coaches did this fall all I heard was this group is night and day different from last year and I guess I let that get me wooly about the team. Its been a severe disappointment so far. They look like it almost works at times tho so they might be slightly improved. This loss to Memphis got me messed up but we can only wait and see. Leach is gonna Leach. And honestly there isn't a choice at QB so we are out of options. Other than the tried and true option that all State fans know.....maybe next year


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  10. #50
    The average lifespan of a coach is about 4 years. If you're sacrificing the first 2 because "it takes until year three to really click", you've hired the wrong coach. With Jackie Sherrill and Dan Mullen, we saw immediate improvement in year 1 and then more improvement in year 2. Arkansas, Mississippi and Missouri aren't having too many problems in year 2. We're 1/4 through year 2 and so far, we've done nothing but go backwards.


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  11. #51
    I think so.


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  12. #52
    He's just a bad fit. We need a younger guy with a more dynamic offense and personality. I wasn't a fan of the hire but was willing to see since Cohen obviously has no concept of what good football coaching really is.


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  13. #53
    You’re pointing out something that was glossed over against LA Tech, and people are doing it again this week. Memphis may win 9-10 games this year on account of having an atrocious schedule, but they are not a good football team.

    They are starting a true freshman at QB that turned down Penn and Harvard to go there, their top skill player by a mile(3 TDs against us)is a former walk on, and their defense is bottom half of the NCAA on its best day. A good, disciplined P5 team would’ve beaten them by 3 TDs minimum last weekend


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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by patdog View Post
    The average lifespan of a coach is about 4 years. If you're sacrificing the first 2 because "it takes until year three to really click", you've hired the wrong coach. With Jackie Sherrill and Dan Mullen, we saw immediate improvement in year 1 and then more improvement in year 2. Arkansas, Mississippi and Missouri aren't having too many problems in year 2. We're 1/4 through year 2 and so far, we've done nothing but go backwards.
    Not really clicking doesn't mean you are sacrificing two years. Mullen didn't really have his offense set up and personnel to run it until the end of 2013. That doesn't mean 2009-2012 were sacrificed. We were limited on offense because of not having the right personnel but we were well coached and luckily had a defense in 2010 that could cover up some limitations on offense. Granted, if Mullen had had a staff that was better at recruiting all positions, we wouldn't have been nearly as limited in 2011.

    Our problem is not the system. It's that we 17ing suck. If we didn't 17ing suck, we'd have gone 4-0 out of conference and likely 2-4 in conference and gone to a bowl game while not executing the air raid at a high level. That's not a great year, but provided we were good next year, I don't think reasonable people would consider it sacrificing two years to spend a year cleaning up JoMo's culture, a year being competent but not good, and being ready to go in year three.


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  15. #55
    Well now you're changing your story. First it was "Leach needs 3 years to get his system clicking" and now it's the system is fine, we just suck. Just pick one and stick with it. They're both somewhat wrong, but at least be consistent. And if the claim is we don't have a QB, well your boy Leach ran off two of them last year. Maybe he should have given those guys a chance at the job before just giving it to Costello and Rogers.


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  16. #56
    This is not directed at any particular poster, but I feel like we’re in some Abbot and Costello routine of circular logic with Leach.

    Why couldn’t we use Shrader or Thompson? Well, they didn’t fit Leach’s pro style system

    Ok, so we’ve got Costello and Rogers now. Why do we still suck? Well, they’re limited in what they can do

    Ok, so now we’ve got Greek and Robertson. Why aren’t they on the field? Well, they’re not ahead of Rogers. But I thought Rogers was limited? He is, but less so than Robertson. But didn’t we run off multiple 4* QBs who actually could do more things on the field specifically so that we’d have guys that were good fits for this system? Yep. But they’re not good fits? Not right now. So when? Who the 17 knows


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  17. #57
    Maybe Leach could have made some slight modifications to his beloved "system" to take advantage of what Shrader and/or Thompson can do until he could have gotten "his" system QB in. Hell, it's pretty obvious right now that he needs to make some modifications to his system even with his QB installed.


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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by patdog View Post
    Well now you're changing your story. First it was "Leach needs 3 years to get his system clicking" and now it's the system is fine, we just suck. Just pick one and stick with it. They're both somewhat wrong, but at least be consistent. And if the claim is we don't have a QB, well your boy Leach ran off two of them last year. Maybe he should have given those guys a chance at the job before just giving it to Costello and Rogers.
    You have your panties in a wad and are not thinking straight. It might help if you read the original post of mine you responded to and try to understand that. Then you would see that I have not changed my story.

    But notwithstanding that, there is nothing inconsistent about saying some people thought "it would likely take until year three to really click in this offense" (which is what I actually said) and "the system is fine" (which is not what I said but is not necessarily inconsistent with what I said). If we were making adequate progress in learning to run the air raid, we would be able to beat La TEch, Memphis, and NCSt. It might not look pretty, and we might not be a good team, but we have enough of a talent advantage that we could win those games without executing at a high level. After that, if we continued to improve, and the system was fine, we would find out the air raid will work against SEC teams also.

    I have not predicted that will happen. I hope that will happen but haven't really made a prediction because I just don't know. It's entirely possible we will find out that the athleticism of SEC defenses just makes the margin for error to slim to be able to effectively compete. Either because you will too consistently lose a battle on the OL, or because the throwing windows are too small for anything but a generational QB to work his way down the field or whatever other reason. But regardless, it would not be inconsistent to think the it will take until year three to really click and that the system is fine. You make some improvements out of the gate and win some games based on talent, and then you execute at a high level and move the ball as good or better than your talent level would predict.


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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by patdog View Post
    The average lifespan of a coach is about 4 years. If you're sacrificing the first 2 because "it takes until year three to really click", you've hired the wrong coach. With Jackie Sherrill and Dan Mullen, we saw immediate improvement in year 1 and then more improvement in year 2. Arkansas, Mississippi and Missouri aren't having too many problems in year 2. We're 1/4 through year 2 and so far, we've done nothing but go backwards.
    You can keep trumpeting this narrative about “it’s the wrong guy if you have to wait 3 years….blah blah blah”….but that’s flat out who we hired. It took 3 years at TT and WSU both for this offense to really take off. You can’t put higher expectations of a coach to implement his system against SEC defenses than what he did against the PAC 12 and Big 12 defenses. None of what is happening should be surprising to people paying attention.

    And furthermore, the offense “really clicking” in Year 3 is still not going to be any better than probably 7th or 8th in the SEC in key metrics, so just get ready for that. And that goes for just about any coach’s system at MSU excluding very rare circumstances with a once in a generation player like Dak or something. Our historical offensive talent base as a program - especially at the skill positions - flat out sucks. This is true even compared to programs with similar resources like OM. It always has sucked, and it likely always will. That’s why a system / execution based on repetition type of approach makes sense for our program. That doesn’t mean Leach’s system will work in the long run, it might not. But personally I’m willing to give it the same time as it took him at his previous two stops. I’ve seen nothing to indicate we are off schedule from what occurred in Years 1-3 at TT / WSU as of right now.
    Last edited by Go Budaw; 09-21-2021 at 11:42 AM.


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  20. #60

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    Shows how knee jerk some of you are. If your opinion was A and then switched to an almost 180 after the LSU game, your opinion was garbage before, after the switch and now.


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  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooterpoot View Post
    He's just a bad fit. We need a younger guy with a more dynamic offense and personality. I wasn't a fan of the hire but was willing to see since Cohen obviously has no concept of what good football coaching really is.
    All you have to do is look at our history and you see can see that there are two types of coaches that have worked at MSU (in the semi-modern era):

    1) Young guy with dynamic offense, like you say (Mullen)
    2) Older guy who understands the dynamics in and around MSU, and fits players to that (Bellard, Sherrill)

    In either case, it's all about doing what is necessary to get the best players in here and maximize them. The core of this is recruiting Mississippi, and then getting leftovers with chips on their shoulders from surrounding states or areas where coaches have ties. And that scheme part has often revolved around great defense, and a running offense and a dual threat QB. Those are the facts.

    Leach has the old guy part, but not the right offense. The ONLY WAY this Leach hire will work is if he is able to lift our recruiting to another level, and to-date, that hasn't really happened. I thought his name would carry some cache, but it hasn't yet. He's only held serve, which will not work. If he only maintains recruiting with an offense that doesn't really fit the personnel we generally recruit, we will underachieve. Sure we've swapped some QB/WR talent for defense, but that's not enough. We have to maintain what we had before and ADD TO IT. Not just maintain.

    Bottom line, he really better start either getting our recruiting up in the teens, or he better evolve that offense significantly and add a real downhill running component, from the RB to the QB.


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  22. #62
    He's who we hired and it was a mistake. I said it then, and I'm saying it now. He's the wrong coach. Two of the last three coaches we hired showed noticeable improvement almost immediately. Other schools in the SEC hired coaches at the same time we hired Leach and are getting good results from them. If his system takes three years, he was the wrong hire. Honestly, we may as well have kept Moorhead. We'd be dysfunctional, but we wouldn't be as boring to watch and we'd probably have a couple more wins.


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  23. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Go Budaw View Post
    I’ve seen nothing to indicate we are off schedule from what occurred in Years 1-3 at TT / WSU as of right now.
    I don't know enough to know if that's true. Just looking at the TExas TEch schedule, his second year they only lost to Kansas (31-34), TExas (7-42), Nebraska (31-41), Oklahoma (13-30) and Iowa (16-19). Kansas was probably as bad of a loss or worse than Memphis. Otherwise, it all looks pretty respectable for that time frame and it seems they were putting up points against bad and mediocre defenses. They did only score 12 against A&M in a 12-0 shutout.

    Not that you can tell everything from the total score 20 years later, but if I were going to guess, I would say not being able to move the ball against Memphis would put us a good ways behind where Texas Tech was.


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  24. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by patdog View Post
    He's who we hired and it was a mistake. I said it then, and I'm saying it now. He's the wrong coach. Two of the last three coaches we hired showed noticeable improvement almost immediately. Other schools in the SEC hired coaches at the same time we hired Leach and are getting good results from them. If his system takes three years, he was the wrong hire. Honestly, we may as well have kept Moorhead. We'd be dysfunctional, but we wouldn't be as boring to watch and we'd probably have a couple more wins.
    Mullen and who else?


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  25. #65
    This is just a hell of a time to be caught in building/rebuilding mode for a school like us. I guess you just could mark it up to the "Injuns". **


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  26. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by patdog View Post
    He's who we hired and it was a mistake. I said it then, and I'm saying it now. He's the wrong coach. Two of the last three coaches we hired showed noticeable improvement almost immediately. Other schools in the SEC hired coaches at the same time we hired Leach and are getting good results from them. If his system takes three years, he was the wrong hire. Honestly, we may as well have kept Moorhead. We'd be dysfunctional, but we wouldn't be as boring to watch and we'd probably have a couple more wins.
    This whole post is full of “WTF” statements.

    First off, no, two of the last 3 coaches did not show immediate improvement. Of Croom, Mullen, and Moorhead, only Mullen showed immediate improvement. You want to go all the way back to Sherrill over 30 years ago and say 2 of the last 4 have shown improvement? OK. But that’s still only saying that hiring any coach is basically a coin flip, which is pretty much all anyone ever said about Leach to begin with. There were no claims of him coming in and winning 9 games a year in the SEC, or leading the league in total offense. Not from anyone outside of sunshine pumping morons on GenesPage, anyway.

    Secondly….No, nobody else hired coaches at the same time we hired Leach. Moorhead wasn’t even fired until well after everyone else had made their hires, and it took a search that lasted almost two weeks after the fact to nail everything down. We made a mistake (or, Keenum made a mistake) in allowing Moorhead to stay on until the shitshow leading up to the MCB ensued. But that’s water under the bridge now….we got the best man who would take the job in mid-January of 2020. That’s what is so funny about all this bitching. Nobody has put a single name out there as to who we should have hired, or who we can hire now going forward that would be better. It’s just incessant bitching for the sake of bitching.

    Your last two sentences warrant no response other than “holy shit”. It’s inherently obvious from just from how you started this diatribe to how you ended it that you aren’t seeking any sort of information or data as to how good or bad Leach’s outlook might be….you’re simply seeking validation.
    Last edited by Go Budaw; 09-21-2021 at 12:18 PM.


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  27. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by johnson86-1 View Post
    I don't know enough to know if that's true. Just looking at the TExas TEch schedule, his second year they only lost to Kansas (31-34), TExas (7-42), Nebraska (31-41), Oklahoma (13-30) and Iowa (16-19). Kansas was probably as bad of a loss or worse than Memphis. Otherwise, it all looks pretty respectable for that time frame and it seems they were putting up points against bad and mediocre defenses. They did only score 12 against A&M in a 12-0 shutout.

    Not that you can tell everything from the total score 20 years later, but if I were going to guess, I would say not being able to move the ball against Memphis would put us a good ways behind where Texas Tech was.
    We put up almost 500 yards on Memphis. We moved the ball just fine. The problem was turnovers and not capitalizing at the end of drives.

    Overall though, I agree with your premise if the premise is that “we just don’t know yet”. Because we don’t. I haven’t seen anything from 9 games of Rogers that seems drastically askew in either direction from the WSU / TT early years. I’m throwing out the Costello debacle, because that guy just straight up completely forgot how to play football.


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  28. #68
    I've never thought of 419 yards as "almost 500." But we did bring Memphis average yards given up under 500.


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  29. #69
    419 is passing only. MSU had 468 total yards. That's nearly double Memphis' 246.


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  30. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by 57stratdawg View Post
    419 is passing only. MSU had 468 total yards. That's nearly double Memphis' 246.
    We also had 26 first downs and were 9/17 on 3rd down. Just left too many points on the field with turnovers, 4th down stop, etc.


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  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatsbaseball View Post
    This is just a hell of a time to be caught in building/rebuilding mode for a school like us. I guess you just could mark it up to the "Injuns". **
    It makes me want to ring Cohen's neck for trying to go to this pass-happy scheme route, especially with our 2018 team returning. You just don't waste teams with that much talent returning. Maybe he thought Slophead would adapt more rather than immediately implementing his system, I don't know. But when he fired Slophead, I see do see the logic behind Leach. And we all knew that 2019-2020 would be rough with the holes Mullen left in the roster. But we really should be farther along by now, and I think running off Garrett Shrader hurt the development of the team. Maybe he had a bad attitude too and needed to go, we will never know, but I doubt it. I bet that's one Leach would like to have back.


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  32. #72
    Also, I like coach Leach but he doesn't strike me as one of those "I'm gonna coach until the day I die" kind of guys. His offensive system is almost unique to him and requires players that fit that system. So there are three questions here. 1) Will his system eventually (after 3 or 4 years) be at least moderately successful at MSU.... IN THE SEC ? 2) How long does he really want to coach ? 3) When he leaves (probably in year 6 or 7 after being marginally successful for a year or two) will we have to completely start over again due to the uniqueness of his system ? When you look at all this (with the advantage of using hindsight) I don't see how you say anything but we just made a bad hire.


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  33. #73

    If Kiffen is successful and leaves after this year was he a bad hire?

    Quote Originally Posted by thatsbaseball View Post
    Also, I like coach Leach but he doesn't strike me as one of those "I'm gonna coach until the day I die" kind of guys. His offensive system is almost unique to him and requires players that fit that system. So there are three questions here. 1) Will his system eventually (after 3 or 4 years) be at least moderately successful at MSU.... IN THE SEC ? 2) How long does he really want to coach ? 3) When he leaves (probably in year 6 or 7 after being marginally successful for a year or two) will we have to completely start over again due to the uniqueness of his system ? When you look at all this (with the advantage of using hindsight) I don't see how you say anything but we just made a bad hire.
    A COVID season and 3 games and he's a bad hire. You guys go off like bottle rockets without sticks. Let's wait to evaluate everything until the end of the season. We have a game against LSU Saturday. I'm more concerned about that game than all this arm waving and sky is crashing. If not for the 2 SEC official field abortions we win at Memphis.


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  34. #74
    It appears Kiffen will win quickly and leave the program in a hell of a lot better shape than he found it...so no I don't think he was a bad hire regardless.


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  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by PirateDawg View Post
    A COVID season and 3 games and he's a bad hire. You guys go off like bottle rockets without sticks. Let's wait to evaluate everything until the end of the season. We have a game against LSU Saturday. I'm more concerned about that game than all this arm waving and sky is crashing. If not for the 2 SEC official field abortions we win at Memphis.
    All depends on what you do, plus what you leave behind. If Kiffin goes 9-3 and Corral does not win the Heisman, and he leaves, then no, he's not leaving it better than he found it. Ole Miss has gone 9-3 before. It's great in the act, but doesn't move the needle. And his recruiting is no better than any other Ole Miss coach.

    To take the next step, Ole Miss (or MSU for that matter) need to win the SEC. That gives you some cache that lasts, and leads to better recruiting even for the next guy.


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  36. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeLee'sSocks View Post
    Yeah. Leach has never been fiery. Passive aggressive at best. Leach is too stubborn to adapt. He feels his system is infallible if executed to perfection... News flash, every offense is perfect if a block is never missed, every route is run to a Jerry Rice standard, and the QB hits the perfect read in stride everytime.

    The air raid is antiquated. It was novel and unique 15-20 years ago when most teams were built to stop the I formation. Today it's a great passing scheme or base of a multiple offense, but the air raid as we are seeing it sucks. Let's look at coaches who are currently having some level of success with it.. There are 4 P-5 air raid coaches I can think of right now.

    Leach @ State
    Riley @ Oklahoma
    Heupel @ Tennessee
    Gundy @ Oklahoma State

    Here are there D1 current rankings in pass/run and pass play percentage.

    1. Mississippi State 77.17% pass
    39. Oklahoma 52.82% pass
    106. Tennessee 40.12% pass
    122. Oklahoma State 30.07 % pass

    G5 air raid head coaches

    29. Seth Littrell - North Texas 58.16% pass
    36. Sonny Dykes-SMU 54.00% pass
    40. Dana Holgerson-Houston 52.70% pass

    D1 coordinators from air raid

    7. Robert Anae-OC Virginia 64.52% pass
    10. Matt Mumme-OC Nevada 63.43% pass
    84. Phil Longo-OC North Carolina 44.55% pass

    NFL 2020

    24. Kliff Kingsbury- HC AZ Cardinals 54.6%
    (That's right, only 8 teams ran the ball more often than the air raid offense in the NFL.)


    Stubborn mother17er.

    ETA. I watched Oklahoma State go to Boise State and win last night. The QB was 6-13 for 82 yards and they rushed for 246 and 3 TD's... Why, because Gundy cares more about winning than how he wins.
    This all day. Pure air raid sucks. All these guys adapted the offense. The best offenses merge a lot of different schemes and philosophy to put points on then word. I've been saying this since early last season. Leach won't adapt. He says so in his book. Problem is that he is wrongs. All of his understudies have adapted and most have all been successful because of it. Have to mix up the offense be aggressive add wrinkles add tempo add zone read or a dual threat guy. It's not 1996 and we don't have Tom Brady. Even his offense that he plays in is more diverse than this crap.


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  37. #77
    Leach will not make it at State unless he has a big and tough qb with super arm talent.


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  38. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Irish View Post
    My answer is yes and it is not because of the results of the air raid or fence. My opinion has changed because I expected him to be a fiery animated person based on all of the clips that I have seen about him from previous jobs. The fact that he did not go absolutely ape shit on the punt return, and the fact that he did not go ape shit on the onside kick ( even though the penalty on the onside kick is in the rule book), has my whole led me to believe that the team he’s going to take on the personality of their coach and just be lackadaisical. This is so disappointing because I was expecting so much more from him.

    nobody in their right mind who is worth a shit will come here if we have fired two coaches in a row after two years. And nobody is definitely going to come to this job with a lame duck, sorry excuse for an AD that we have in John Cohen. If we can get rid of his sorry ass, then yes we can make a change in the coaching position this year. But Keenum doesn’t have the sack to do that!

    Cohen is more hated in the athletic department than LT, simply because of his political agenda and he has put people in position of power that support his agenda. And if you think I am making this up, just ask someone in that athletic department off the record what things are like. They will tell you we have regressed back to the days of Larry Templeton!
    Is there anything (or anyone) that you support associated with State?


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  39. #79
    It’s Goat….again.
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Posts
    702
    Quote Originally Posted by Palos verdes View Post
    Leach will not make it at State unless he has a big and tough qb with super arm talent.
    This is true if you look at all the guys that have been successful in the offense before. B.J. Symons, Case Keenum, Graham Harrell, Johnny Manziel, Gardner Minshew. At Texas Tech Leach seemed to have a run of good ones. I like to compare Sumlin at Houston and Texas A&M because we played them and then obviously the SEC. And if everyone remembers, without Case Keenum Houston went from a BCS buster to like 5-7. QB matters, it definitely ain't plug and play.


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